Jennifer Pizer and Brian Brown spoke with VPR's Jane Lindholm about strategies they'll pursue in states where same-sex marriage is being debated.
Brian Brown & Jennifer Pizer on same-sex marriage debate strategies
Jennifer Pizer and Brian Brown spoke with VPR's Jane Lindholm about strategies they'll pursue in states where same-sex marriage is being debated.
31 Comments
I am worried that adolescents and younger children will get confused and pressured into a same sex lifestyle.
Case in point: Adam Lambert(gay) confesses that he had a crush on Kris Allen(straight and married). Adam is clearly not media savvy to have admitted this kind of thing.
If they were younger only GOD knows what would happen ,or if God forbid if he (adam) was an older male putting pressure on a younger male (kris)confused about his sexuality
This is why gay marraige should not be ,teenagers have enough to cope with without putting pressure on them to behave in a certain way
With the lack of a father figure in most teenagers lives they will be vulnerable
If it is true that sexuality is innate then they will not change ,however if is true that sexuality is a continuum and if its true that most of us would like to be heterosexual then we should let those teenagers figure it out without putting(gay) pressure on them.So, for example , if a person has homosexual tendencies ,there should not be any encouragement or pressure to be gay. Maybe that person can lead a straight life
I think it is important to differentiate between those who experience a same sex attraction and those who take part in homosexual sex.
People who are experiencing same sex attraction need help from professionals in dealing with it so that they can lead healthy lives free from homosexual behaviours.
I agree,they should be helped by professionals,AND they should be free from pressure(being forced to accept that gay is good or ideal)
Agreed Dawn,
I worry about the children being confused at school with normalizing a gay lifestyle. How will kids during the teenage years dealing with changes and defining themselves have it any easier. I believe the normal gay lifestyles in school will add more confusion to a difficult time already for kids and it may cause more teenagers to go toward a gay lifestyle than would not have in the past. Its not easy being gay. I don't want it causing pain for others.
dawn blake: if a person has homosexual tendencies ,there should not be any encouragement or pressure to be gay. Maybe that person can lead a straight life
If you encourage them to deny how they feel and to "try" a straight life, they end up getting married to try and "cure" themselves, spending years and years in a sexless marriage and ruining both lives until they finally realize and admit that they can't change who they are... then divorce... maybe even had kids who now have a broken home...
Not a good plan I don't think.
Marie, I am curious as to the statistics of divorces resulting from homosexuality. I would think it would be very low in comparison to other reasons like adultery, money, abuse, greed. But I don't know of any stats specifically or studies. Of course its best to be heterosexual, but if your not doesn't mean you can't still be married and live a good life to an opposite member spouse. If a spouse claims to be gay and wants to leave the marriage, its no different then spouse abuse, or adultery. The relationship fails. However a homosexual can change his behavior just like someone abusing their spouse or addicted to pornography, studies do back this up and marriages can work out in some cases. But I think the argument you present is very very limited. Considering only 2 % of americans are gay. I doubt many gays get married to an opposite sex spouse. Although I don't know of any studies on the divorce rates.
Adam: Of course its best to be heterosexual, but if your not doesn’t mean you can’t still be married and live a good life to an opposite member spouse.
Is that really fair to the straight spouse though? Even if the gay partner manages to fake heterosexual behavior, the whole relationship is built upon a lie. It's fake, forced, a sham and an insult to the "meaning of marriage," isn't it?
Isn't it better for people to sort themselves out early so they can make informed and appropriate choices about their partners and their future?
who says you "have" to get married? what's wrong with being single? There are plenty of heterosexual people who never marry because they don't find the right person or they just prefer not to marry.
It's interesting to me how no one has an interest in owning up to the gay agenda on that side, but how closely it's been followed is striking.
To quote the Gay Liberation Front Manifesto:
"We will show you how we can use our righteous anger to uproot the present oppressive system with its decaying and constricting ideology, and how we, together with other oppressed groups, can start to form a new order, and a liberated lifestyle, from the alternatives which we offer."
Far from being the oppressed group they wish to portray to the media, they are as a group nothing more or less than an extension of radical liberalism. The societal institutions attacked by the Gay Rights agenda include the family, quoting again from the Manifesto:
"The oppression of gay people starts in the most basic unit of society, the family. consisting of the man in charge, a slave as his wife, and their children on whom they force themselves as the ideal models. The very form of the family works against homosexuality."
The schools;
"In the content of education, homosexuality is generally ignored, even where we know it exists, as in history and literature. Even sex education, which has been considered a new liberal dynamic of secondary schooling, proves to be little more than an extension of Christian morality. Homosexuality is again either ignored, or attacked with moralistic warnings and condemnations. The adolescent recognizing his or her homosexuality might feel totally alone in the world, or a pathologically sick wreck."
The church;
"Formal religious education is still part of everyone's schooling, and our whole legal structure is supposedly based on Christianity whose archaic and irrational teachings support the family and marriage as the only permitted condition for sex. Gay people have been attacked as abominable and sinful since the beginning of both Judaism and Christianity, and even if today the Church is playing down these strictures on homosexuality, its new ideology is that gay people are pathetic objects for sympathy."
They continue with attacks on the media, employment, the law, psychiatry, to continue the quote;
"But gay liberation does not just mean reforms. It means a revolutionary change in our whole society."
Not even monogamy is immune from attack by the Gay Rights advocates;
"Monogamy is usually based on ownership-the woman sells her services to the man in return for security for herself and her children-and is entirely bound up in the man's idea of property furthermore in our society the monogamous couple, with or without children, is an isolated, shut-in, up-tight unit, suspicious of and hostile to outsiders."
Their goal is to indoctrinate the young to abandon any semblance of our current society;
"The long-term goal of Gay Liberation, which inevitably brings us into conflict with the institutionalised sexism of this society, is to rid society of the gender-role system which is at the root of our oppression. This can only be achieved by eliminating the social pressures on men and women to conform to narrowly defined gender roles. It is particularly important that children and young people be encouraged to develop their own talents and interests and to express their own individuality rather than act out stereotyped parts alien to their nature."
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/glf-london.html
"isnt that not fair to the other partner "
Marie,
If both partners are honest ,they can have a very good life
All you catholic christian people on this website are clearly brainless and need to stop letting your God tell you what to do. Oh and you Zombies also need to smarten up and realize that there's nothing to be scared about. Gay people getting married is not your issue. Are you the one marrying another guy? or an other girl? I bet you're not because you homophobes are just not smart enough to realize that gay marriage is really no issue. You want something to worry about? How much polluting your own air. You should be more scared of what you're breathing then what you're trying to chase.
Kate, sexual sin is a biblical concept. Not all Americans are Christian or Jewish. That's one of the big problems of making same-sex marriage illegal: it imposes biblical principles on unwilling gay people. Ironically, Christians never want to impose biblical principles on straight people: they never want to make divorce or adultery illegal.
Why are gay people, regardless of their faith, expected to live by biblical principles, while straight people are not?
Berto
We know nothing will change for us. It doesn't hurt me directly if you get married tomorrow. We care about our children. Being gay is not fun and brings sorrow to the individual and his/her associates. We don't want the this influence gaining any traction in the future that will desensitize the morals of our children and cause confusion. We care about our children and their future and also the future of society 50 years from now. Homosexuality is nothing to be feared as long as it doesn't become the norm of society and confuses children and degrades our society as a whole. Just like pornography alcohol abuse, molestations, drug abuse, crime, adultery, sexual permissiveness, and other harmful affects, we do not fear these types of behavior, we just want to minimize their influence as much as possible to avoid pain and suffering for our children and society.
To those of you who oppose SSM on the grounds that "homosexual behavior" is destructive... what would be your position on Civil Unions for same-sex couples?
Kate, homosexuality is a normal lifestyle, just as heterosexuality is a normal lifestyle. The idea that homosexuality is a sin isn't true of all religions.
Kate: "There are so many options for the homosexual to lead a normal lifestyle, faith in God and living the principles of the Gospel. If the homosexual is motivated, they can live a life free of sexual sin. They have to have the desire of course."
"Homosexuality is nothing to be feared as long as it doesn’t become the norm of society and confuses children and degrades our society as a whole. Just like pornography alcohol abuse, molestations, drug abuse, crime, adultery, sexual permissiveness, and other harmful affects, we do not fear these types of"
but alcohol abuse, molestations, drug abuse, crime, adultery and sexual permissiveness are DESTRUCTIVE behaviors. Homosexuality is not a behavior it is not a choice it is who we are at heart. Homosexuality is not destructive as long as it is between two consenting adults in bears 0 negative consequences. Homosexual couples live happily right now together leading a completely normal lifestyle. We don't live in the 1950's anymore. Psychological evidence has shown that you can't change your sexual attraction and being gay is not a disease and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. I dare you to bring to me ONE physical negative consequence of allowing same-sex marriage.
Keith your comments, while sincere no doubt, are not held by all people. Kate is entitled to her view, just as you are. If there are those who have homosexual leanings who choose to work on their underlying issues, let them. More power to them.
Homosexuality is not cut and dried. People's understanding of sexual orientation is only beginning to be understood. Some people believe that it is a fluid thing, something that can change with time or experience.
Certainly no one is locked into the lifestyle simply because they experience attractions. Ease up and have an open mind.
We don't erode religious liberties through SSM. We don't fix a very disturbing psychological problem by throwing our hands up in the air and giving in to civl or same sex marriage. We don't give up on protecting our children from the potential for abuse and HIV disease. We don't fix a drug problem by legalizing drugs. We must work to strengthen families and protect our religious freedoms.
Kate: "Just because someone else thinks it may be OK, does not make it so"
And just because someone else thinks it is wrong, does not make it so either, my dear.
Kate said: We don’t erode religious liberties through SSM
Typical Anti-SSM propaganda.....A church or pastor is not forced to perform a marriage they do not want to perform. Please research before you speak.
Kate also said: "We don’t give up on protecting our children from the potential for abuse and HIV disease"
And if you don't believe heterosexuals abuse children and have HIV, I would love to live life looking through those rose-colored glasses you have.
'Homosexuality is not destructive as long as it is between two consenting adults in bears 0 negative consequences.'
I can see why people would *want* to believe this, but I can't anymore.
In my line of work, I have numerous male friends and colleagues who lived or are living the homosexual lifestyle and several have shared with me health issues concerning their rectal area, etc. They are physically suffering great consequences. And they weren't necessarily doing the whole bathhouse thing or prostituting, though some have. Most just have typical, consentual sex, in relationships that are monogamous for at least a few months. It seems to me (and several of them) that their bodies weren't designed for the type of sex they chose.
Redmond, I like your take on this-
'If there are those who have homosexual leanings who choose to work on their underlying issues, let them. More power to them.
Homosexuality is not cut and dried. People’s understanding of sexual orientation is only beginning to be understood. Some people believe that it is a fluid thing, something that can change with time or experience.
Certainly no one is locked into the lifestyle simply because they experience attractions.'
The last sentence is reassuring to the many people who really want out of the lifestyle but feel trapped by the 'its who you are' thinking.
Ross said:
"A church or pastor is not forced to perform a marriage they do not want to perform."
Strawman.
Ross said: "Please research before you speak."
You misrepresented the actual disagreement. But at least your research is impeccable, eh?
The bible says it best in:
LEVITICUS 18:22
Kate - let me see if I understand you correctly. My 29-year relationship with a same sex partner, our daughter and her husband and four children should not be? When you say, "deal with their homosexual problem" you should really state what you mean. Eradicate them (kill them) or make them lie and hide in submission about their true selves? Just as an FYI, we are not addicted, depressed, lonely or a threat to society. I pay my taxes that you probably benefit from because you are married. And really Kate, you actually believe there is a gay and lesbian sex-recruiting center in the schools? Its time to have an open dialogue with someone other than your peer group on the topic. Learn lady, learn.
God is watching. He is watching what NOM and it's people are doing to HIS Gay & Lesbian creations.
So are your children. They are watching you. And learning your bigotry.
How proud you all must be.
Bill is it always your tactic to personally denigrate the people you disagree with?
unfortunately Hedwig, the statistics don't support you on your theory.
The view that homosexuality is not a mental illness but is a healthy lifestyle is often given as the basis for changing the traditional Christian stance on homosexuality. But does science really show that homosexuality is healthy? This article will consider the findings of science.
There is no absolute standard for judging what is normal or abnormal. But there are some common empirical criteria that are commonly used to decide whether a behaviour is healthy:
* Emotional health
* Psychological health
* Physical health
Emotional Health
A major study by Bell and Weinberg revealed that 78% of male homo- sexual "affairs" (relationships entered into with an intent of commitment) lasted less than three years. Only 12% lasted five years or longer. Study by Alan P. Bell and Martin S. Weinberg, “Homosexualities: A Study of Diversity Among Men and Women”, (New York, Simon and Shuster, 1978) p.314
Certainly, this shows a pattern of broken relationships that must be painful for many.
73% of the psychiatrists in the American Psychiatric Association who responded to a survey by Harold I. Lief said that they thought that homosexual men are less happy than others. 70% percent said they believed that the homosexuals' problems were due more to personal conflicts than to social stigmatization. Study by Harold I. Lief, Sexual Survey Number 4: Current Thinking on Homosexuality, Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality 2 (1977), pp.110- 111 (Cited in Growing Up Straight by George A. Reker).
David McWhirter and Andrew Mattison conducted a non-random study of 156 stable committed male homosexual couples. They found that none of the over 100 couple that had been together for more than 5 years had been sexually monogamous or exclusive. The authors, themselves a gay couple, argued that for male couples, sexual monogamy is a passing stage of homophobia and that many homosexuals separate emotional fidelity and sexual exclusivity. What matters for male couples is emotional not physical faithfulness.D McWhirter and A Mattison, “The Male Couple: How Relationships Develop”, (Englewood Cliffs, Prentice-Hall).
Many studies have shown that children of homosexual households are 2 to 4 times as likely to become homosexual themselves as compared to the general population. Timothy J. Daily, “Family Research Council: Insight: Homosexual Parenting: Placing Children at Risk”. See http://www.frc.org/get/is01j3.cfm.
Psychological Health
In a national health care survey 75% of the nearly 2000 lesbian respondents reported they had pursued psychological counselling of some kind, many for treatment of long-term depression or sadness. J. Bradford et al., "National Lesbian Health Care Survey: Implications for Mental Health Care," Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology 62 (1994): 239, cited in Health Implications Associated with Homosexuality, p. 81.
Homosexual men are 6 times more likely to have attempted suicide than are heterosexual men. Study by Bell and Weinberg, “Homosexualities…”, Table 21.12
Studies indicate that between 25 and 33% of homosexual men and women are alcoholics. Study by Robert J. Kus, “Alcoholics Anonymous and Gay American Men”, Journal of Homosexuality, Volume 14, No.2 (1987), p.254
Bell and Weinberg reported evidence of widespread sexual compulsion among homosexual men. 83% of the homosexual men surveyed estimated they had had sex with 50 or more partners in their lifetime, 43% estimated they had sex with 500 or more partners; 28% with 1,000 or more partners.Bell and Weinberg p 308
The same study revealed that homosexual men have to a great extent separated sexuality from relationship. The survey showed 79% of the respondents saying that over half of their sexual partners were strangers. Seventy percent said that over half of their sexual partners were people with whom they had sex only once. Bell and Weinberg pp.308-309. It should be noted that this survey was drawn from the San Francisco area at the height of the celebration by that gay community of its freedom from the restraints of “puritanical, middle-class values” and before the AIDS epidemic struck.
In their study of the sexual profiles of 2,583 older homosexuals published in Journal of Sex Research, Paul Van de Ven et al. found that "the modal range for number of sexual partners ever [of homosexuals] was 101–500." In addition, 10.2 percent to 15.7 percent had between 501 and 1000 partners. A further 10.2 percent to 15.7 percent reported having had more than 1000 lifetime sexual partners. Paul Van de Ven et al., "A Comparative Demographic and Sexual Profile of Older Homosexually Active Men," Journal of Sex Research 34 (1997): 354.
A survey conducted by the homosexual magazine Genre found that 24 percent of the respondents said they had had more than 100 sexual partners in their lifetime. The magazine noted that several respondents suggested including a category of those who had more than 1,000 sexual partners. "Sex Survey Results," Genre (October 1996), quoted in "Survey Finds 40 percent of Gay Men Have Had More Than 40 Sex Partners," Lambda Report, January 1998, p. 20.
Surely these are indications of either deep dissatisfaction, or else terribly destructive hedonism.
Physical Health
90% of lesbians surveyed had been recipients of one of more acts of verbal aggression from their partners during the year prior to the study, and 31% reported experiencing physical abuse (Lettie L. Lockhart et al., "Letting out the Secret: Violence in Lesbian Relationships," Journal of Interpersonal Violence 9 (1994): 469–492. ) and in another reference we see that “the incidence of domestic violence among gay men is nearly double that in the heterosexual population.” Gwat Yong Lie and Sabrina Gentlewarrier, "Intimate Violence in Lesbian Relationships: Discussion of Survey Findings and Practice Implications," Journal of Social Service Research 15 (1991): 41–59.
The Medical Institute for Sexual Health further reported: “It should be noted that most studies of family violence do not differentiate between married and unmarried partner status. Studies that do make these distinctions have found that marriage relationships tend to have the least intimate partner violence when compared to cohabiting or dating relationships.” Health Implications Associated With Homosexuality (Austin: The Medical Institute for Sexual Health, 1999), p. 79.
Lesbians are 3 times more likely to abuse alcohol and to suffer from other compulsive behaviours. Joanne Hall, "Lesbians Recovering from Alcoholic Problems: An Ethnographic Study of Health Care Expectations," Nursing Research 43 (1994): 238–244
A study of homosexual twins found that they are more likely to have attempted suicide than there heterosexual twin. R. Herrell et al., "A Co-twin Study in Adult Men," Archives of General Psychiatry 56 (1999): 867–874
The life expectancy for gay and bisexual men is 8 to 20 years less than for men in general. Robert S. Hogg et al., "Modeling the Impact of HIV Disease on Mortality in Gay and Bisexual Men," International Journal of Epidemiology 26 (1997): 657.
“A disproportionate percentage — 29 percent — of the adult children of homosexual parents had been specifically subjected to sexual molestation by that homosexual parent, compared to only 0.6 percent of adult children of heterosexual parents having reported sexual relations with their parent. … Having a homosexual parent(s) appears to increase the risk of incest with a parent by a factor of about 50.” P. Cameron and K. Cameron, "Homosexual Parents," Adolescence 31 (1996): 772
Conclusions
Scientific studies show there is a correlation between homosexuality and personal distress. There is clear evidence that many live unhealthy lifestyles. But not all homosexuals are distressed. Not all homosexuals experience personal distress nor can it be concluded that such distress is an inevitable part of the homosexual experience even if it is very common. Further there is effort to muddy the waters by hiding this kind of data. The mental health community, rather than reflecting the majority view, seems to have committed itself to revising the predominant public response, to normalizing behaviour that is rejected by the public.
It is comforting to share a common understanding with most of the people in society about what is good and bad behaviour, healthy and unhealthy patterns of living. However, we are heading into a time where more and more people disagree on what is a healthy person. An increasing number of the people and institutions around us have very different understandings about good & bad behaviour and healthy & unhealthy living.
We must also recognize that right and wrong are not always the same as healthy and unhealthy. Psychological abnormality and immorality are two different things although they sometimes overlap. Sometimes they are not related at all. Many conditions that are sins are not pathologies (idolatry, pride, sorcery, lust, fornication). Many conditions that are pathologies are not in themselves sins (anxiety, depression, psychosis).
Christians must recognize that neither society’s consensus or judgement of whether a behaviour is healthy has to match God’s view or the church’s moral judgement. New Testament Christians were clearly out of step with their society's understanding of what made a good character, a good person and a good life. Morality is not usually decided by democratic vote. By contemporary standards, a life consumed with greed, materialism, sensualism, selfishness, divorce and pride is judged healthy but God evaluates such a life and finds it lacking.
We won! Prop 8 victory for children in California, Federal Judge agrees to hear our case showing why SSM harms children and is against God.
With respect to the drivel one comes across regarding the behavior of other animals, I would offer that members of other species may occasionally engage in homosexual behavior, though it is fairly rare, and is virtually always explained by mistake or substitution.
There is no basis for a conclusion that there is any yearning or preference for members of the same sex for sexual activities. In humans there is only such a yearning or preference because of the mental constructs that are formed as a result of the activity to categorize it and justify it, and the social networks that form that reinforce it. The more homosexuality is accepted, the more social networks will form to reinforce it, and the more common it will be.
This is problematic not only because it lessens the potential for developing harmonious sexual relationships between members of the two sexes, but also because it has become part of a general pattern and contributes to a movement to spread misandry throughout the society, which involves the intentional increase of misunderstanding, mistrust, and hostility between the sexes. Virtually no other movement could be as destructive towards the end of developing a harmonious society or of improving general human welfare and ensuring the survival of the species.
The legal issues of SSM will soon be put to rest on a Federal level, striking down the recent rulings in Ohio and other states. The Federal jude in Northern California refused to invalidate Prop H8 and moved for a speedy trial that will set a precedent upholding OSM throughout the nation. Victory for the nations children will soon come to pass. All is well.
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[...] Jennifer Pizer and Brian Brown spoke with VPR's Jane Lindholm about strategies they'll pursue in states where same-sex marriage is being debated. [...]...